From Uvalde LiveATC: 15 meter cancelled dut to mid-air. Open and 18
meter class still underway and not cancelled.

On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:37:49 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
> From Uvalde LiveATC: 15 meter cancelled dut to mid-air. Open and 18
>
> meter class still underway and not cancelled.

Pilots are safe.

On Aug 17, 4:41*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" >
wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:37:49 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
> > From Uvalde LiveATC: 15 meter cancelled dut to mid-air. Open and 18
>
> > meter class still underway and not cancelled.
>
> Pilots are safe.

That's great news. By the looks of Spot tracking (albeit delayed) 15
meters were passing about 20 min by drive from where I am in a car.
This is much closer than Uvalde. If you are onsite, let me know if
they need assistance on the ground for anything and where the location
is (Pipe Cree, perhaps?)

On Aug 17, 4:41*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" >
wrote:
> On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:37:49 PM UTC-5, Duster wrote:
> > From Uvalde LiveATC: 15 meter cancelled dut to mid-air. Open and 18
>
> > meter class still underway and not cancelled.
>
> Pilots are safe.

"Some of the other 15m pilots were involved in rescue/communications
overwatch/escort for the damaged glider and in the interests of
fairness the task for 15m has been cancelled for the day. We have
recalled Nick through a relay through the Belgian team. Crew is on
the way to the airport."

"One pilot parichuted, the other made it back to Uvalde."

Two 15 Meter class gliders were involved in a midair collision at the World Gliding Contest in Uvalde Texas. Both pilots are reported safe. The 15 Meter task has been cancelled . Further details are unavailable at this time. The contest management are focusing on and working with the appropriate authorities to collect further information.

This statement was released by the WGC2012 Contest Management and I was asked to post it on RAS. Updates will be posted as they become available.

A midair collision between two 15-Meter class gliders happened at around 15:30 local approximately 30 km southwest of Uvalde.

Louis Bourderlique of France (glider FB) was able to fly back to Uvalde and land safely. Peter Hartmann of Austria (glider PC) bailed out and rode his parachute safely to a good landing. He was picked up by helicopter, returned to the Uvalde airfield, then taken to a local hospital for precautionary checks.

Ken Sorenson
Contest Director

On Friday, August 17, 2012 8:37:29 PM UTC-4, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> A midair collision between two 15-Meter class gliders happened at around 15:30 local approximately 30 km southwest of Uvalde. Louis Bourderlique of France (glider FB) was able to fly back to Uvalde and land safely. Peter Hartmann of Austria (glider PC) bailed out and rode his parachute safely to a good landing. He was picked up by helicopter, returned to the Uvalde airfield, then taken to a local hospital for precautionary checks. Ken Sorenson Contest Director

Good to hear that both pilots are safe! Just out of curiosity: were they P-FLARM-equipped (portable or installed)? Are the IGC-files available?
'GM'

Glad that everyone is okay. Has there been any reporting of the sequence of events which led up to the mid-air? Considering that these were two of the best pilots in the world and they collided it would seem that we could all learn something from their unfortunate encounter.

Walt

On Aug 17, 6:37*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)" >
wrote:
> A midair collision between two 15-Meter class gliders happened at around 15:30 local approximately 30 km southwest of Uvalde.
>
> Louis Bourderlique of France (glider FB) was able to fly back to Uvalde and land safely. Peter Hartmann of Austria (glider PC) bailed out and rode his parachute safely to a good landing. He was picked up by helicopter, returned to the Uvalde airfield, then taken to a local hospital for precautionary checks.
>
> Ken Sorenson
> Contest Director

Flarms?

At 02:31 19 August 2012, Mike C wrote:
>On Aug 17, 6:37=A0pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
>wrote:
>> A midair collision between two 15-Meter class gliders happened at
around
>=
>15:30 local approximately 30 km southwest of Uvalde.
>>
>> Louis Bourderlique of France (glider FB) was able to fly back to Uvalde
>a=
>nd land safely. Peter Hartmann of Austria (glider PC) bailed out and rode
>h=
>is parachute safely to a good landing. He was picked up by helicopter,
>retu=
>rned to the Uvalde airfield, then taken to a local hospital for
>precautiona=
>ry checks.
>>
>> Ken Sorenson
>> Contest Director
>
>Flarms?
>
More to the point, were they (as is likely) in a gaggle. In which case
Flarm is not really relevant.

it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift...
btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out ;)

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift... btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out ;)

>>> it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift... <<<
Interesting! Is that statement based on personal experience or just an assumption? Have you flown with 30 (P-)FLARM equipped gliders in one thermal - or even 10 of them, for that matter?

>>> btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out ;) <<<
The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....

Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in
Europe). It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.

>The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....
>
>
>
>

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark Dickson wrote:
> Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in Europe).. It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.

Mark - I am well aware of the fact that FLARM has been in use for years in Europe and the rest of the world and that it has a few short-commings but I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different and was just introduced in the US this year. So, please let's keep that in mind when discussing the incident at the worlds.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:29:06 AM UTC-6, GM wrote:
> On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark Dickson wrote:
>
> > Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in Europe). It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.
>
>
>
> Mark - I am well aware of the fact that FLARM has been in use for years in Europe and the rest of the world and that it has a few short-commings but I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different and was just introduced in the US this year. So, please let's keep that in mind when discussing the incident at the worlds.

Indeed!

Keep in mind it is still possible to collide when both pilots see each other. All it takes is for one to zig instead of a zag. It could have been as simple as a momentary error in judgement. At the level of the WGC, pilots are not just skilled they're also aggressive. Maybe separation got too small and closing rates got too high for just a second.

Is P-Flarm perfect? Of course not. Is it useful? Definitely.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:29:06 AM UTC-4, GM wrote:
>... I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different

No it is not. PowerFLARM runs the identical core code
as original FLARM. PowerFLARM does have better radios,
ADS-B, PCAS... which are not relevant to this discussion.

At 11:36 19 August 2012, GM wrote:
>On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift...
>btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so
before
>using flarm more importand look out ;)
>
>The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....
>
As a convinced long term user of Flarm, I can state confidently if you pay
much attention to it (and come to that GPS navigation) in a gaggle of 30
aggressively flown gliders, you are much more likely to hit something than
if you ignore it.

It's a valuable piece of kit, just not for that situation.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:12:30 AM UTC-4, Richard Brisbourne wrote:
> At 11:36 19 August 2012, GM wrote: >On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote: >> it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift... >btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before >using flarm more importand look out ;) > >The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced ..... > As a convinced long term user of Flarm, I can state confidently if you pay much attention to it (and come to that GPS navigation) in a gaggle of 30 aggressively flown gliders, you are much more likely to hit something than if you ignore it. It's a valuable piece of kit, just not for that situation.

Hi Richard,
could not agree more - nothing replaces the Mark-8 eye balls kept outside! P-FLARM is new to the US and I have flown with it for only a few month, including one national contest. The most P-FLARM equipped gliders I have flown with in one gaggle was 3 and since all flew well behaved, there were no flase alarms. Thinking that one can use P-FLARM or any FLARM to barrel through the sky blindly is a recipe for disaster. I trust that P-FLARM will become a valuable addition.
Uli

Do we need to wait 1+ year for the final NTSB report to maybe find out if the mid air happened in a gaggle and if they had Flarm on board?
I am sure many knows the answer, how about sharing it with the rest of us?

Ramy